tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6774510750415512728.post3795426107893447348..comments2024-03-28T11:04:39.145-04:00Comments on Proof Positive: Civility and the Civilized ManMike aka Proofhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08931553845065187278noreply@blogger.comBlogger14125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6774510750415512728.post-60869892407661769372015-01-21T14:27:09.390-05:002015-01-21T14:27:09.390-05:00Will do. That you for the opportunity to comment.Will do. That you for the opportunity to comment.Mike aka Proofhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08931553845065187278noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6774510750415512728.post-26003674962426278002015-01-21T13:47:55.761-05:002015-01-21T13:47:55.761-05:00You mentioned President Obama. One question I negl...You mentioned President Obama. One question I neglected to bring up, President Obama outright lied a number of times during his SOTU (I lost track how many). One group counted the "broken promises of Barack's 6 SOTU's and came up with 112. <br /><br />What is our debt of civility to the pathological liar? As a fellow human being, he commands a certain measure, but is it ever permissible for a Joe Wilson to shout out "You lie", when the President is clearly lying? Most of us agree that that was not a forum for rebuttal or comments from the audience, but a Supreme Court justice merely shaking his head in the audience draws a rebuke from the Liar-in-Chief. Ought not civility to go both ways?<br /><br />At what point, if any, do lies and incivility, or ignorance and intractability justify a reply in kind? That is to say, the unkind in kind?<br /><br />Inquiring minds want to know!Mike aka Proofhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08931553845065187278noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6774510750415512728.post-37258733400103728142015-01-21T13:36:59.383-05:002015-01-21T13:36:59.383-05:00I am aware of that. In fact, the last I heard was ...I am aware of that. In fact, the last I heard was that the Saudi were mercifully delaying his second set of lashes since the first ones hadn't properly healed yet.<br /><br />Sarcasm, too is a piece of the civility puzzle! Of course, the former was not totally sarcastic, but skated right up close to the edge!<br /><br />I enjoyed your participation, as iron sharpeneth iron. Stop by anytime and keep me honest!Mike aka Proofhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08931553845065187278noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6774510750415512728.post-46400867995941834482015-01-21T13:33:41.161-05:002015-01-21T13:33:41.161-05:00If I may step into your conversation for a moment....If I may step into your conversation for a moment. "Calm reasoned persuasive criticism has the best chance of doing so."<br />Perhaps. But what about with unreasonable people? People who are intractable in their ignorance or error? For example, no amount of reason has been able to persuade Obama to permit the KeystoneXL pipeline extension for six years. It is also unlikely that sweet reason will do so in the next two, but political pressure might.<br /><br /><br />Saul Alinsky advocated ridiculing your opponents as a means of prevailing. Again, you can see that, although it is apparently useful as a tactic, just how closely do we want to be seen emulating our enemies? Does the end truly "justify the means"?<br /><br /><br />As to religious fervor, sweet reason has not prevailed amongst the Mohammedans for 1200 years, nor are they likely to change in the next. Is it possible to criticize their faith without criticizing them personally? <br /><br /><br /><br />I suppose it is a balancing act of being civil with the civil and fighting fire with fire. <br /><br /><br /><br />I still see no clear black and white delineation, but rather, 50 shades of gray. I appreciate the thoughtful and well reasoned comments of my readers and shall take them all under advisement.<br /><br /><br />Thanks for your contribution, Phil!Mike aka Proofhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08931553845065187278noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6774510750415512728.post-58672695390330051662015-01-21T11:33:42.155-05:002015-01-21T11:33:42.155-05:00As you are aware, there is a blogger in Saudi Arab...As you are aware, there is a blogger in Saudi Arabia who was sentenced to 1000 lashes. 50 every other week until complete. That is a tough crowd! No doubt as a blogger you feel privilaged to be able to express your views to the world. That privilage comes with responsibilty. Your excellant article made me aware that you have given this some thought.<br />Good for you!Mike aka Proofhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08931553845065187278noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6774510750415512728.post-12827532529691492382015-01-21T11:25:45.504-05:002015-01-21T11:25:45.504-05:00Good question. All of us get our backs up when som...Good question. All of us get our backs up when someone obviously mocks, ridicules or insults our worldview and beliefs. However, most of us can spot someone who has an opposing view and legitimatly has concerns with ours. Mockery preaches to the converted, whereby constructive criticism has been known to persuade and change others of their views, or a least make them aware that theirs is not the only viewpoint. We sense that when our opinions are being mocked that those doing the mocking feel threatened by our opinion and are having difficulty defending theirs. The result is that we dig in our heels and close our minds because we feel if we are being mocked then we must be right. We all choose to live in our own bubble of disillusionment whereby we believe certain things because we want to believe them more than the facts support. Constructive criticism over time will burst that bubble. Mockery reinforces it. We in the West sense that the demand not to depict the prophet Mohammed is an attempt to stifle criticism of that faith. Therefore we want to depict him because we feel that faith needs criticism. We mock to piss them off and then get upset when we succeed. Strong persuasive criticism has a better chance of motivating the believers to change. We may not see it now, but extremist Islamists feel extremly threatened because their worldview is under attack by reason and we are witnessing their death throws to moderates and non believers. if your goal is to change behaviour, choose the best method. Calm reasoned persuasive criticism has the best chance of doing so.Mike aka Proofhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08931553845065187278noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6774510750415512728.post-34097663039718527722015-01-21T09:41:57.944-05:002015-01-21T09:41:57.944-05:00Very well stated, indeed. Civility is measured in ...Very well stated, indeed. Civility is measured in the behavior, or the level of courtesy, in which the idea is expressed. Indeed, it is technically possible to advocate for slavery, for instance, and to do so in a "civil" manner, even though there is nothing civil about slavery in and of itself....but my question is: If we agree that civility is about the manner in which an idea or criticism is levied, regardless of the subject matter, isn't the "constructiveness" of the commentary ultimately subjective? If, for instance, I am criticizing a policy proffered by President Obama, and supporters of his do not find my comments at all constructive, even though I am, by definition, behaving in a civil manner, do they then set the terms of the debate by declaring me UNcivil? Do you see my point?Mike aka Proofhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08931553845065187278noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6774510750415512728.post-29893650592769292412015-01-20T19:12:34.465-05:002015-01-20T19:12:34.465-05:00"If your criticism is not constructive, don&#..."If your criticism is not constructive, don't criticize."<br />Tough crowd! There goes half my blog! Heh.Mike aka Proofhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08931553845065187278noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6774510750415512728.post-85138897541631050352015-01-20T19:10:50.382-05:002015-01-20T19:10:50.382-05:00In my defense, I posted this on Monday night. I ca...In my defense, I posted this on Monday night. I can't help it if your sloth and indolence prevented you from getting her until this AM! ; )Mike aka Proofhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08931553845065187278noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6774510750415512728.post-46818295953425056012015-01-20T19:07:31.854-05:002015-01-20T19:07:31.854-05:00"There...always will be "mean" peop..."There...always will be "mean" people..."<br />How very rude of you to point that out! Heh.Mike aka Proofhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08931553845065187278noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6774510750415512728.post-79776351097151691622015-01-20T13:42:33.432-05:002015-01-20T13:42:33.432-05:00The price you pay to live in a democracy is that y...The price you pay to live in a democracy is that you do not have the right "not" to be offended. Otherwise those who disagreed with you would simply claim to be offended in order to stifle your point of view. Civility is the exercise of expressing your point of view with the purpose to correct or improve or to make others aware, not to ridicule or insult mock or humiliate simply because you do not like the person or idea that you are criticizing. If your criticism is not constructive, don't criticize.Mike aka Proofhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08931553845065187278noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6774510750415512728.post-61022064505355978942015-01-20T09:58:21.857-05:002015-01-20T09:58:21.857-05:00Excellent points, and it was very rude of you to m...Excellent points, and it was very rude of you to make me think on a Tuesday morning!!!!<br /><br /><br />It is a tough question regarding civility. Where and when? When should we dispose of it in a situation?Mike aka Proofhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08931553845065187278noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6774510750415512728.post-62195163487957506432015-01-20T05:12:45.640-05:002015-01-20T05:12:45.640-05:00There has and always will be "mean" peop...There has and always will be "mean" people...<br /><br /><br />Knee jerk reactions rule social mediaMike aka Proofhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08931553845065187278noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6774510750415512728.post-74071415794818193962015-01-20T00:05:37.311-05:002015-01-20T00:05:37.311-05:00Your comment reminded me of something I had meant ...Your comment reminded me of something I had meant to include. And yes, we live in an uncivil world, yet it is incumbent upon us to preserve civilization as best we can. Perhaps we cannot always be completely civil, but we should at least know the reason why!Mike aka Proofhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08931553845065187278noreply@blogger.com